The Gaming Den

Sashi wrote:Actually it kind of does.

Are you fighting beholders as a way to compensate for a feeling of helplessness in your real life? Then that's a power fantasy.

Are you fighting beholders because it's a good way to relax and have fun with your friends? Not a power fantasy.

I like reading Snow Crash because it's fun to visualize Hiro Protagonist zooming down the highway on his Cyberbike with a katana strapped to his back. Does that make reading a book a power fantasy?

Is imagining myself in a job I'm applying for a power fantasy?

How deep does this rabbit hole go? What isn't a power fantasy?

Sashi wrote:Except then you've expanded "power fantasy" to be so broad that it encompasses literally every motivation it's possible to have for playing games.

What differentiates "escapism" "character development" and "puzzle solving" from "power fantasy"? If everything is a power fantasy, then nothing is.

I'm not saying I haven't tried to fulfill power fantasies in an RPG, I'm just saying that I've also played Vampire LARPS because they were an easy way to hit on goth lesbians.

You're the one who's trying to say that "power fantasy" encompases every motivation. There's no rabbit hole, only your seeming unwillingness or inability to actually follow the discussion.

Take your puzzle solving question. Minesweeper is puzzle-solving. Sudoku is puzzle solving. Clue is puzzle solving. None of which are power fantasies.

Power fantasies have some element of taking the role of someone else who does interesting/exciting things that you don't, whether it's more active role-taking in a RPG or more passive as watching a movie or reading a book. In that sense there's a larger-or-smaller element of escapism, sure.

IDK what you're on about with "character development". That has zero to do with anything, except I guess all these people that keep trying to pretend it's not about power fantasy but really character or story development. Lame excuses are lame.

Okay, lets get something straight. More than once I've seen people say that Dean is trying to expand the definition of power fantasy to mean every motivation for playing games. The answer to these accusations is as follows, when did it stop being every motivation for playing games? Seriously fish swim, wind blows, rain falls from the sky some things are just elemental and no matter how you mince those words it still boils down to the same thing. Even in games like Call of Cthulhu that are supposed to oppressive and dark chronicling the journey of a group of normal people as they slowly slip into insanity is a power fantasy because you're trying to win.

Overcoming adversity and preventing the return of the old gods is empowering and even if you fail and die or get put in an institution the fact that you fought when some, arguably most, wouldn't is still empowering. Even in a game of Bunnies & Burrows being a member of the mouse guard and defending bunny society is empowering, being one of the bunnies of NHIM and building a society beneath the rose bush in the farmer's garden is empowering outsmarting bigger, stronger, creatures and surviving another day is empowering fuck just being able not be part of the social constructs humanity chains itself with is, you guessed it, empowering.

By the way, take a stab at what the word of the day is.

darkmaster wrote:Okay, lets get something straight. More than once I've seen people say that Dean is trying to expand the definition of power fantasy to mean every motivation for playing games.

I wasn't specifically talking about Dean. But people are saying stupid stuff like this:

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:

Cyberzombie wrote:others like actually interacting with NPCs,

Everything you said there is part of a power fantasy

Stinktopus wrote:However, the simple fact remains that you play an RPG to pretend you are someone else, doing things that you can't, or won't, do. For me, if you are pretending to be someone else, or a version of yourself freed from IRL consequences, for the purpose of pretending at things which you can't do, won't do, or can't do as well, then you are engaging in what I would consider a Power Fantasy.

In other words: Steve the crap covered farmer is a power fantasy.

ishy wrote:In other words: Steve the crap covered farmer is a power fantasy.

It might!

While it doesnt sound that way, at first.
It still might be one, depending on what he is doing, becoming.


Let's be honest, who is playing Steve the crap covered farmer, who doesnt do anything other than farming (in-game!).

ishy wrote:I wasn't specifically talking about Dean. But people are saying stupid stuff like this:

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:

Cyberzombie wrote:others like actually interacting with NPCs,

Everything you said there is part of a power fantasy

Hold on there, I think there's too much context in the two sentence fragments you quoted.

You fucking idiot.

darkmaster wrote:Even in games like Call of Cthulhu that are supposed to oppressive and dark chronicling the journey of a group of normal people as they slowly slip into insanity is a power fantasy because you're trying to win.

Nope. Trying to win is something you seek to accomplish when youre playing a game. Any game. From checkers to poker to soccer.

phlapjackage wrote:Power fantasies have some element of taking the role of someone else who does interesting/exciting things that you don't, whether it's more active role-taking in a RPG or more passive as watching a movie or reading a book. In that sense there's a larger-or-smaller element of escapism, sure.

In Psychology thats already the definition of fantasy, not "power fantasy". Thats why they say youre fantasizing when you imagine yourself banging that hot neighbour which you would never do in real life because you already have your wife and she already has her husband (and you are probably a fucking ugly skinny white geek in the first place so she wouldnt let you bang her even if she was single anyway ).

Power fantasies (as in Male Power Fantasies) is what you see in Rambo, Conan and the likes. In other words, the product of an ugly skinny white geek with little dick who never fucked anyone at college, was totally unpopular, and got his ass kicked by everybody.

silva wrote: Power fantasies (as in Male Power Fantasies) is what you see in Rambo, Conan and the likes. In other words, the product of an ugly skinny white geek with little dick who never fucked anyone at college, was totally unpopular, and got his ass kicked by everybody.

So, in other words, RPG Gamers, particularly those with high post counts on multiple online forums.

You rolled a partial success, you hit the orc but the GM reminds you that you still have a small dick.

darkmaster wrote:Okay, lets get something straight. More than once I've seen people say that Dean is trying to expand the definition of power fantasy to mean every motivation for playing games. The answer to these accusations is as follows, when did it stop being every motivation for playing games? Seriously fish swim, wind blows, rain falls from the sky some things are just elemental and no matter how you mince those words it still boils down to the same thing. Even in games like Call of Cthulhu that are supposed to oppressive and dark chronicling the journey of a group of normal people as they slowly slip into insanity is a power fantasy because you're trying to win.

Overcoming adversity isn't about being empowered, it's a sense of accomplishment, which is something different. Overcoming a challenge effectively isn't a fantasy at all, it's reality.

People never answered my question above: If every game is effectively about nothing more than being empowered, then why can you lose? If all people want to do is feel powerful, why can you die in video games? Why doesn't everyone have permanent god mode? Why do you hear people complain sometimes about a game being too easy? If all we want is being empowered, don't we want the game to be ridiculously easy? Why offer people the option of playing on a higher difficulty?

There are godawful sports teams too, ones that consistently have losing seasons. Why haven't these teams disbanded? Obviously it can't be empowering to get your ass kicked all the time. How do these teams have players in the first place?

If the only reason people play games is to feel like Superman, then I have to wonder why people would ever play an online multiplayer game where they're very likely to get their asses kicked for a while before ever becoming competitive. Why wouldn't they just stay on single player mode running every cheat code in the book?

People do play games for reasons other than empowerment.

Most every game has elements of empowerment. But that's not the only reason people play those games. It's not limited to a power-fantasy, but most people who claim that it isn't at all a part of it are mostly deluding themselves.

From the original post that brought it up, clearly the description isn't worthwhile in an article that is intended to be neutral.

I think it's important to recognize that people do stupid things. Maybe they're playing RPGs because they want to cure cancer. That doesn't seem like it would be the best way to go about it, but they might honestly believe that is their motivation. I don't think you gain anything by suggesting they have a different 'real' motivation, or that you know them better than they know themselves. If they're lying to themselves, they'll have no problem lying to you. If they're not lying to themselves, ascribing false motives will justifiably annoy them.

In terms of GM advice, it's not bad to remind GMs that a certain amount of escapism and wish-fullfillment is to be expected, and many games will have elements in common with power-fantasies. People tend to associate power-fantasy with super-heroes, so if they're playing a 'realistic, gritty game where character death is common', they'll reject the term, even though there are certainly elements that could be considered commonalities between both styles of play.

Effectively, power-fantasy is a poorly defined term, and it has loaded meaning for some people. For a neutral-bias post, it's a bad idea.

Cyberzombie wrote:People never answered my question above: If every game is effectively about nothing more than being empowered, then why can you lose? If all people want to do is feel powerful, why can you die in video games? Why doesn't everyone have permanent god mode? Why do you hear people complain sometimes about a game being too easy? If all we want is being empowered, don't we want the game to be ridiculously easy? Why offer people the option of playing on a higher difficulty

Victory is all the more sweeter the bigger the chance of failure. If you can't fail at anything, there's really no challenge. For some people, that may well be their power fantasy, but for others, they like to have the possibility of failure. They want to take risks that they never would in real life, because It's all the more awesome when they pay off.

deaddmwalking wrote:Most every game has elements of empowerment. But that's not the only reason people play those games. It's not limited to a power-fantasy, but most people who claim that it isn't at all a part of it are mostly deluding themselves.

Well there's no disputing that some people play RPGs for the empowerment. It's just that I disagree with the premise that every gamer plays RPGs for a power-fantasy.

Dealing in any kind of absolutes is generally the fastest way to make incorrect statements.

If anything I would say "Misery Fantasy" is so popular as Power Fantasy.

For each 1000 players that find Dishonored awesome, there is another 1000 that find it too easy and prefer DARK SOULS any day of the week.

Okay, so you realize you just compared a stealth game that focuses on stealth to an RPG that focuses on combat right? I guess yes there are players that prefer aggressively challenging games. But you're kind of comparing apples to oranges there. Yes I know you were agreeing with me, but I thought that point needed clarification.

@Cyberzombie It's funny how you kept the part of my post where I said CoC is in deed a power fantasy but not the part where I said that even if you lose persevering in the face of adversity is empowering even if you end up failing and have a high chance of failing from the go ahead, in fact the higher the chance of failure the more empowering it is to keep heading forward. And while some people might not be playing "for" the power fantasy they are playing A power fantasy and almost certainly on a subconscious level that's what they're there for because the power fantasy feels good. It just feels good to be super powerful, or prove your metal before seemingly insurmountable odds and perhaps prove the odds were surmountable after all. And even if they're there for the "story" unless they feel empowered the story will be boring, and if they're there for "the character development" then that is by definition characters reacting to, growing from, and overcoming problems. Like I said you can turn this into word salad all you like but all roads lead to Rome motherfucker.

No, Im not agreeing with you, darkmaster.

And if you couldnt connect the examples, compare Dark Souls to Devil May Cry or some other piece of cake action fighting game (or compare Dishonore with Thief or other hardcore stealth game). I doubt people play these hardcore games for getting "empowered", specially because thats exactly what those games DONT make the player feel like while playing them. I would say the main motivation behind those hardcore games is the cheer challenge. People want to be challenged. Simple as that.

Wiseman wrote:They want to take risks that they never would in real life, because It's all the more awesome when they pay off.

Also, hilarious when Mike's dude gets decapitated again.

So, you've never played Dark Souls or you just suck at it right? Because Dark Souls ,while oppressive and dark, once you learn the ropes you can more than handle the bosses that come at you and if feels good, you feel like you've accomplished something and become stronger and that is absolutely a power fantasy.

I never would have finished the NES Ninja Gaiden if it weren't for one simple goal: Lording my obvious superiority over my little brother.

darkmaster wrote:So, you've never played Dark Souls or you just suck at it right? Because Dark Souls ,while oppressive and dark, once you learn the ropes you can more than handle the bosses that come at you and if feels good, you feel like you've accomplished something and become stronger and that is absolutely a power fantasy.

This post just proves different people can appreciate the same media for different reasons.

Which is totally my point (and deadmwalking and cyberzombie too).

silva wrote:

darkmaster wrote:So, you've never played Dark Souls or you just suck at it right? Because Dark Souls ,while oppressive and dark, once you learn the ropes you can more than handle the bosses that come at you and if feels good, you feel like you've accomplished something and become stronger and that is absolutely a power fantasy.

This post just proves different people can appreciate the same media for different reasons.

Which is totally my point (and deadmwalking and cyberzombie too).

The fact that Dark Souls is obviously a power fantasy is just proof that it isn't a power fantasy, see guys.

No you idiot. Dark Souls is only a power fantasy, it is nothing else at any point. There are zero people in the world who play Dark Souls because they enjoy dying to random skeletons over and over without making progress. Everyone who has never progressed beyond "die a lot" hates Dark Souls and quit playing it.

The people who didn't quit playing it are people keep vanquishing the hard parts. And this is because of the obvious fact that is so obvious the only reason you are pretending not to know it is because you are a dishonest [EDITED]:

The harder the challenge you beat, the more empowering beating it is.

Why is "power fantasy" have to be a pejorative that means immature, repressed, deficient, and/or grossly masculine?

If I play a cute girl who shoots massive beams of energy and rainbow-colored swirling novas from a Taoist Bagua, it's not because I think it's a particularly deep character I can use to tell a rich, meaningful story. But she's still fun to play.

The contention in this debate seems to come from the use of language. If you only apply the negative connotations of "power fantasy" to Conan, then you're not going to appreciate it. But if you appreciate Conan for what it is, you'll enjoy a classic tale of self-actualization, overcoming adversity, and some damn fine cinematography.

Can too much of the positives of "power fantasy" drive something into the realm of kitsch? Sure. Too much dessert makes you fat (just ask Patchy). But you should still eat dessert, as it can perfect a meal, in moderation. With an RPG, instead of eating your vegetables and proteins, you have rolls that can fail keeping things in contrast.

So, Silva did mention Thief, and the new Thief game just came out, so can we derail this troll thread and talk about that instead? Please? Okay I'll start.

I really quite like the game. I mean it has its problems, but what game doesn't and a lot of the complaints I've been hearing are pretty dumb. Like I've heard people complaining about the supernatural aspects of the game and fuck those people the final boss of Thief was god. And no that's not a spoiler Thief: The Dark Project came out 16 years ago, that's more than enough time for the spoiler cutoff to kick in. The supernatural has always been a thing in Thief and trying to separate thief from supernatural stuff would be dumb. Plus unlike a Dishonored your super powers feel more like acquired skills, listening to pinpoint foot steps, knowing the inner working of locks stuff like that, though they were perhaps introduced in a less than satisfying way, and the game could have done without the combat upgrades because it really shines with the sneaking.

The basic controls are pretty tight moving around, looking, aiming all feel good, though there's no arc on your arrows, and you get this cool little stealth sprint to dart from shadow to shadow and that works flawlessly, you swoop for like 15 feet, or until you let up on the space bar, you can do it in any direction, it's great. The platforming is all contextual, if you sprint you can parcore, and you can jump up small ledges, onto ropes, up to grapple points with your cool like climbing claw and it mostly works fine, but sometimes the jumps don't work for some reason and occasionally getting off a rope can cause trouble it's not often, but often enough to be annoying.

There are also a lot of nice little touches, Garret will pull back curtains when you walk through them, a bunch of little nods to the older games, you can tell someone but a lot of love into making it and so far I've been having fun with it. It is perhaps not as good as the older games but with a little more polishing I think it could rate as one of the greats, so I'm looking forward to and putting my support in for a squeal. Maybe we'll see the return of the hammers and pagans.

You appear to be suffering a crippling comma shortage. It's impairing readability.

Yes, it's a real tragedy, you see there one of the comma deliveries to my area was run off the road so we've had to do without for the most part.

Is going on the internet and waving your dick around an ACHIEVEMENT in Dark Souls?

Um, I don't know, I don't follow the Dark Souls internet... stuff. But if you get good at the game you deserve to have some pride because the game throws a fucking wall at you right at the start.